Author Topic: New Substance changes  (Read 5276 times)

I normally don't post this stuff, but I feel this is a slap in the face for people who been buying substance Designer and painter each time... ....So you expect  us to pay again after I just did twice for Designer5 and  6 and painter 1 and  2... So I will have to pay to get features in Sept 2017....

I don't mind buying them after a few years...but this is getting out of hand...

I can't stand Subs, reason I no longer used Adobe products and Auto Desk...Looks like I'm adding you to the list..

Some of us like to OWN our products..   75 bucks t... What if someone don't upgrade for a year....Are you going to double dip them?  So many questions, and I feel you JUST got paid by us...and now you want more...
Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 11:13:06 pm

Hi,

We are not going into a subscription model, and you still own the software. This doesn't change.

Today, you are paying $75 to upgrade to Substance Painter 2 or Substance Designer 6, and you don't know long you will get updates. If you upgrade to Substance Painter 2 a few months before we would release Substance Painter 3, you would have only a few months of updates.

From June 2017, we are going to give you 12 months of updates, no matter when you buy. And you keep what you have after the 12 months.

So if during 3 years you feel that you don't need to get the new release, you can use the current build you have.
If at one point there is a release you want, you just pay $75 and you get access to all the builds you missed, + all the new ones for the 12 months. And you can keep this after the 12 months.

Cheers,
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 01:57:09 am
Director of Product Management & COO

I already upgraded, to Substance Designer 6 Day 1 and Painter 2... I was told, from an email from you guys that ALL updates will stopped, and if we want them, we will HAVE to pay again.

75 bucks ...again.

I don't mind paying, but not every few months, after I just upgraded to Designer 6 .  This is what the email stated. Until Sept .

Far as the  if we missed an update. I like that ,  that I can live with.. I would hate to have to keep paying 75 bucks for each update I miss..   Now I have bought every version of Substances Designer and Painter.   But I will be honest I feel they have NOT been worth it... at all.  So that is my point.  So glad we can wait it out and skip an update, then buy say one 2 years later and only have to pay 75 bucks then get all the updates. That sounds better.   I can deal with that. Thanks for the info, hey have it poorly explained in email, where it had me upset with  Substance I spent alot of money buying all your products, so I like to keep it this way, but I don't want to see full on Sub based nonsense. 
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:48:29 am

As we wrote, Indie users will get free updates:
- up to September 30, 2017 for Substance Painter 2
- up to June 30, 2018 for Substance Designer 6

After those dates you can decide when you want to pay $75 for each software to get 12 months maintenance, and you will always own the software.
If you feel that the updates are not worth paying, then you just don't have to pay and keep what you have.

Cheers,
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 03:57:48 am
Director of Product Management & COO

Nah your emails did not say this...You may want to check them and send again...

Substance Painter 2 had the info you stated, but nothing on Designer, it just said, substance .  So its miss informing people... But still Sept 2017..How many updates are coming until then??? as I have not seen many.. Since it released and it wasn't that great compared to Painter 1 in my opinion.. No I won't buy it for awhile. You lost me and my company as a customer for now. 

We paid for this..

http://steamcommunity.com/app/454510/discussions/0/385428943467231221/

and in Sept you want to charge again.... This is what i'm talking about... NOT much for updates if there are more and I have never seen it  by all means... Show us.
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:03:55 am

You may've checked the wrong email for Substance Designer:

"For license holders with standalone licenses, this will mean no more major numbered versions (for example, no Substance Designer 7), but the ability to purchase a license with 12 months of free upgrades included. 
  - Since you have purchased a Substance Designer 6 license, you will get free updates until June 30, 2018.
  - After this date, you can purchase 12 months of updates at any time for the price of $75 or subscribe to Substance."


We released Substance Painter 2 14 months ago, and we made 6 updates already. The change log you mention goes to version 2.2, while we released version 2.6 last week.
In September 2017, it will make 18 months of updates, and exactly the same number of updates that for Substance Painter 1 (it lasted 18 months and went up to version 1.7).

You can find the full change log here: https://www.allegorithmic.com/products/substance-painter/release-notes

Cheers,
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:26:26 am
Director of Product Management & COO

I got that right from Steam.  So sounds like it needs to be updated and corrected.


They need to show it properly then as it said Sept 2017 is all I seen. and I own all your products all versions.

If Designer 6 is June 2018.. Then great that is fair of course.  that is what I'm talking about as it looked as if it was months later... Since Designer came out a few months back.... So so please correct your emails. Then. Maybe it missed the Substance Designer 6 knowing I own it maybe?
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:40:00 am

I checked and the email for Substance Designer 6 was sent to you. But as we sent several emails, one for each software, it's possible some of them went to the spams.

Anyway, I'm glad everything is now clear :)
Director of Product Management & COO

D3V


The language use should be checked by someone legally inclined(no matter the locality) before sending these emails.
The email(s) place holes in the stipulations of current agreements (which you can not retroactively change)and language use, ..I won't bother explaining, you'll see over the days to come as you guys 'field' the forum posts. ;)

Nevertheless, I am all for progress... Nicolas knows what I mean..
plus this.. https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,16967.0.html



//EDIT:
I just read the Substance LIVE related email..where it states 12 months of payments then a $49 fee to own a current version('fallback license' style I assume) ($240/12 months then $50 for each  software or all software ? IDK..you guys don't stipulate.).  - This equates to approx $290 for each software ?  ..or ??
Considering the new 12 month period of support is $75.. this alllllll really needs clarification.
--
MANY people are using the plan that was talked about.. 6 months at $10, then 2 months at $20 to get Designer 6.. yet the email tonight almost tries to negate that. This really need clarification guys...
@Nicolas, reference; https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,15257.0.html
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:49:56 am

I posted the same question on the Facebook group. I'm still not quite convinced...Paying those $75 feels like "a gamble".

Nicolas said that there's still one more free Painter update, until September. Let's say it doesn't contain any of the features that we have been asking, like full UDIM support (I know it seems like I only care about that, but it is a really important feature...). But then, this feature is implemented in the following update, which means that pretty much all of us would have to pay $75. But how can we know that in the following 12 months there will be another major updates? What if there are only more 2 or 3 minor ones? Then we will have paid $75, the current price of an upgrade, for just one feature.

Okay, I can wait and pay when there's a build that I want, but if you guys release the most requested features 12 months or more apart, we will have to pay those $75 every year anyway...If Allegorithmic guaranteed us that they would keep the pace, that there would updates, without fail, every month or two months or whatever, it would be a different thing.

D3V


Some good points Bernardo.
Autodesk is currently dealing with lava-hot angry people regarding 3dsMax 2018 that costs thousands and basically equates to a minor update of useless blargh WHILE they also removed the MentalRay renderer. 
- I will note that I do have faith in Alleg.. to take care of everyone in an ethical manner. I am sure the plans are just not clearly stipulated yet.

Anyhow, Bernardo's latter part of the post speaks about one of the items to be "fielded" as mentioned in my earlier post.
$75/yr or 75+75+75 for 3 yrs .. or perhaps 'degradational planning'(which is the best option IMHO) ..
- StuntedExample: for each year that passes, degrade the cumulative total of previous maintenance updates you skipped; 75,50,25 = $150 price to receive the 2 years previous maintenance plus 12 months of maintenance.
------ ..but is this where that $49 fee comes into play ? is it $75 + $49 ?
Wait... maybe the 12 months of payments is related to this $75 per 12 months of updates ?  which means$75 plus $49 to get fallback license ?

Honest Allegorithmic.. you guys have a spaghetti mess here, please clarify.  - I'll shush up for now. ;)
- E


Hi guyz,

Things are actually pretty simple:

Substance for $19.90 per month:
- as long as you are subscribed, you get all the software and 30 downloads on Source (as today)
- when you want to quit, there are 3 options:
    - if you have been paying for less than 12 months, then you just quit
    - if you have been paying for more than 12 months (for example 18 months), when you click on "Cancel" you will have an option "Do you want to own the software for $49?"
                - Yes: you will own a license of Substance, meaning SD + SP + B2M. This means you can own the software for $290 (12 x 20 + 49) after 1 year, compared to $320 (16 x 20) today after 16 months with Substance Live.
                - No: you just quit


Regarding the updates:
- you pay $75 to get 12 months of maintenance, and you own the software.

For example, with Substance Painter 2 Indie:
- you have free updates (free maintenance) up to September 30, 2017
- we release new builds in October, November, etc, but you are not interested in the new features, so you don't do anything. You still use your regular build from September.
- in January 2018 we release a new build, with a feature that you love: you pay $75, and you will get all the builds up to January 2019. Then you keep your build from January 2019.
- or you can wait for a few more months, see what's coming, and purchase the update only you feel it's worth it. Maybe you will wait months before purchasing a 12 months maintenance.

It's basically like today, except that instead of buying "Substance Painter 2" without knowing how many updates you will get, you buy 12 months of maintenance.

Cheers,
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 07:45:26 am
Director of Product Management & COO

I posted the same question on the Facebook group. I'm still not quite convinced...Paying those $75 feels like "a gamble".

Okay, I can wait and pay when there's a build that I want, but if you guys release the most requested features 12 months or more apart, we will have to pay those $75 every year anyway...If Allegorithmic guaranteed us that they would keep the pace, that there would updates, without fail, every month or two months or whatever, it would be a different thing.

This is the problem today: when you buy "Substance Painter 2", you don't know neither how many updates you are going to get, nor what will be the updates.
Users who purchased / upgraded to Substance Designer 5 after February 2016 for example got less than 12 months of updates, as we released SD 6 in February 2017.
With this new offer, you are sure to get 12 months of updates, no matter when you purchase it.

We are going to maintain regular updates, as we are doing today.
If we don't do it, then you don't have any reason to purchase maintenance...
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 06:48:44 am
Director of Product Management & COO

hi there,

I think this new "payment plan" is not much different, to the old one.
In fact, it´seems to be a bit more in favor for the customers. So it´s a good thing.

But - to make this work as advertised, I think a roadmap, that will plot out the upcoming updates/changes/new features is mandatory. Would be a good move, anyways (even if licensing would not have changed), so users could see, what´s next.

No need for sharp release dates - but at least something around "plusminus" a few weeks will do.

Cheers

My first reaction was one of alarm.  Then I read the rest of the email, and calmed down some.

As long as they allow us to BUY AND OWN the software (which is currently the case), I will be okay.

I don't know that I would call this "simpler."  It wasn't complicated before.  Pay for major releases (not hard), and download free point releases (very easy).  The new business model is different, but not simpler.


My remaining question has, I think, been answered by Nicolas in this thread.
QUESTION:  If I don't "renew" at the end of my twelve-month period, will I need to pay full price the next time?
ANSWER:  It appears you can allow your "support" to lapse, but can will still be allowed to once again purchase updates at the discounted "current customer" rate.  True?

If I read that right, you could, in theory, save money by buying support every other year.  But what you lose is you have to suffer without those year-two updates until you repurchase support.  If you are happy with the software, and none of the second-year updates add value to you, I guess you could try it.


@Mustang...  FYI...  I got two emails, one for Painter and one for Designer, both are Indie licenses.  My Substance Designer email said this:  "Since you have purchased a Substance Designer 6 license, you will get free updates until June 30, 2018."



SUGGESTION:

Currently I have two different expiration/renewal dates.  One for Painter and another for Designer.

How about the option to prorate one license and sync the dates, and then allow me to renew both licenses in a single transaction.

That would be an actual simplification.
Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 04:16:44 pm
Hobbyist