Author Topic: Allegorithmic is joining the Adobe family (Part2)  (Read 16730 times)

We hate you Adobe. Working with your software is like dealing with the devil. Sure works magic when you want it to, but I die inside a little every single time. Is there any way you could return unused portions of my soul? I would like to dedicate Steppenwolf's "The Pusher" just for you.  >:(

@musashidan Corporate logo designers need love too ;D

It's simple economics, Adobe has 15 million CC users willing to put up with the subscription model. Our small community who supported a company away from Adobe's forced rental system does not really matter in the end really. Even if we all simultaneously quit Substance products right now we are easily replaced by Adobe's Prosumer base at $20 a month.

Since the 1990's, Adobe has been the design company for Graphic and Web designers. It has never been viewed as serious 3D company, and barely a Film/VFX company. Instead of fighting for a 3D spot, maybe they should just merge with Autodesk already and become Adobedesk, the ultra-mega software monopoly that you just can't get away from.
We make an own the tools you need to work, and now you will pay us perpetual rentals to access your own work.

In the same way that no workman would rent his work hammer to work, digital artists should not accept the rental model in its current form. Software as a service is a the new talk of the town on how to milk consumers for cash. In the long run it will not work once every company is only selling rental software services and people realize that the collective they have to pay per month will outpace the pre-paid software licenses they used to own.

Rent-to-own or Perpetual licenses are acceptable and fair models. Most of us are even willing to own a perpetual license and have the consumer choice to subscribe to a major updates system.

This is why your current customer base feels betrayed.

However, it does not justify taking it out on the developers or disrespecting their team no matter how you feel about the process.


Even when Adobe is huge for now. Nothing is carved in stone. The subscription model is very risky for a company.
Imagine a new world wide financial crash (again) ,where little studios, or even bigger ones have to tight their belts.
First thing they look after is how to reduce costs and get ride of subscription models and buy software where they have after no pressure anymore with monthly payment.
Other thing is, my stepson just finished last year his study at the Art University "école de condé" in Nancy.
I talk with many students over there (just out of interest) and what I can tell you is that many dislike Adobe products and did not use them private .The school even suggest them to stay flexible and also try open source and other Software which is not "Industry standard". Times will change. Including for Adobe. New ,young artists become more individual and want to stay independent. The field which Adobe will cover is for new young Artists not from Interest. I hear many times the claims "Adobe CC is a gadget " buggy, bloated up, way to inflexible .I think many will move in another direction than Adobe wants.

I really hope the best for Substance Suit and for the team behind it. I admired them from the first day on I see their Software and still do. And I still trust them that they have best intention. Hope all their dreams become true .
For now I still keep my subscription here, but i will not join Adobe. Not because the Allegorithmic team, because Adobe with his CC which I just simply don't want to see anymore on my PC. (Cost me enough nerves to remove it)

@musashidan Corporate logo designers need love too ;D

Come on, man. You can do better than that. My questions still stand.

Corporate logo designers and Substance tools in the same conversation? Welcome to Adobe...... ;)

So will the Substance programs remain separate entities in the long term or will they slowly be cannibalized by other Adobe software?

@musashidan

It's still a very young product though, it only came out of beta last year. Do you remember Substance Designer 1.0 or Substance Painter 1.0? it wasn't much better (it was actually much worse) in terms of usability or workflow. But it has huge potential to become something amazing for many people including the game industry, and you will see drastic improvements very soon.

And thank you for the kind words ;)

Okay so is Adobe literally behind itself or just plainly ignoring tools that have existed for years by now?

By this I talking about  Element 3D which has been around for years as the only serious 3D plugin for Adobe After Effects which we VFX artists have been using for a long time now.

It crushes Dimension and AE's own built in tools, offers live GPU based rendering already, PBR support, OpenGL, SSAO, Ray Trace Shadows, AO, MultiLayer Rendering and Compositing, 3D tracking, 3D Noise, Particle Noise, 8k HDR, Dynamic Reflections, CINEMA 4D and OBJ file support, and Sub-Surface Scattering.

It came years before Adobe tried to add any form of proper 3D to after effects, and Andrew Kramer's solution is still bar none better than anything Adobe's internal has come up with to date.

https://www.videocopilot.net/products/element2/

If Adobe is serious about doing anything remotely VFX and 3D based I really do hope you guys take the time to reach out to and work with Andrew over there who even managed to wrangle After Effects 3D rendering into the latest Star Trek films.

https://www.videocopilot.net/contact/company/
https://blogs.adobe.com/creativecloud/andrew-kramer-after-effects-and-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

Cheers











You can see the 2018 examples are using PBR painted texture maps as well which would make Substance ideal for that toolset for professional pipelines.

I'm sure dimension is great for static product design, but for animators, right now as you said its a 1.0 product.

Thanks again.
Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:49:23 am


Please give us clarity within the next 15 days about the current Allegorithmic Subscription to Perpetuals.
Also: will the substance package in it's whole be kept as it is now - or will it fuse completely to CC without any outside version remaining?

Hey.
First question, I have no ETA
Second question I'll speculate, but while I can imagine new offers coming, it wouldn't make sense to change/remove parts of what's inside the current offer (once again, these are speculations).

Thx

Hey guys,

I hate to bring this up again, but I haven't got a satisfactory response yet and I'd like to highlight this issue and get clarification before I send a mail in to support. The full story is over on this thread: https://forum.allegorithmic.com/index.php/topic,27505.0.html but the two main points are:

1) When I first bought the substance indie live subscription the terms I agreed to said explicitly that after 18 payments I would automatically own the software, but 18 months passed and I was never sent a permanent license. I should own permanent licenses for Substance Painter 1, Bitmap2Material 3, and Substance Designer 5 according to the terms of sale I agreed to, but I can't find those licenses anywhere.

2) Around the time of Substance Painter 2 being released, I think, you seem to have changed the terms of sale for the indie live subscription to say that we had to make 8 payments following the release of the software to earn our permanent license, and that we had to request the license. You failed to notify existing users about this change by email (I definitely didn't get one), and I'm pretty sure I didn't open the software this entire time or agree to any new EULA.

I had no idea I was supposed to cancel my subscription and request a license to get one, and I only found out when 2017 came out it was too late to claim the SP2 license. You didn't notify me of the business model change so I had no way to know I was missing that opportunity. I'm definitely supposed to have a permanent license to Substance Painter 2 now too, but I can't find that license anywhere on your site either.


My question is: If I contact support, will they be able to give me those four permanent licenses that you agreed to provide me with but that I somehow missed claiming? That's Substance Painter 1, Bitmap2Material 3, Substance Designer 5, and Substance Painter 2. I'm aware that these are old versions of the software and no longer officially supported, but I'd very much like to get those permanent licenses I'm owed as members of my team do want to use the older versions. I'm very happy to keep my subscription going or pay the $49 fee on cancellation for licenses to the latest version, but I do want those older licenses I was promised.

Second question: If we cancel and pay the $49 fee, what happens to our access to Substance Source and credits accumulated in it?

Hey, in short: yes just write to us and if it's the case, we'll make what's necessary (i may have already been done while I'm writing). contact@allegorithmic.com

To be honest, we have been communicating like crazy during months when we made the change (newsletters, blog posts, dedicated pages, etc...): we didn't fail at all, but once again, we'll happy to fix your case.

Thanks

@Vincent
I would like to keep a bit longer my subscription, at last till you join full the CC. Can you give me the guaranties that in 2-3 months I am still able to buy me out? On 05/05/  my 4th year is full. But than I would like to have my perpetual licence.
You think it will be still possible in 2-3 or 4 months? Or should I go now for the buy out?

@musashidan Corporate logo designers need love too ;D

Come on, man. You can do better than that. My questions still stand.

Corporate logo designers and Substance tools in the same conversation? Welcome to Adobe...... ;)

3d is highly specialized area where you spend years just to learn methodology and tools to be able to start creating something plausible. i am assuming adobe is not on the way to educate their current clientele on 3d.
vfx studios are still asking for many tools to be able to integrate substance in their pipelines however its not where the money is, logo designer are where the money is.i think the worry is about
how
this
uploads

and this

free image upload

would be able to supported by same package and same developers (we dont have many people like you guys around), its from as simple as its UI design to either drag and drop logo design texture support or 8K high density mesh UDIM support they obviously both cant be the focus at the same time right?
it will be every day decision for 3d division of adobe
should be working on glorifying dimension, but we already have way better, years ahead solutions for rendering, or should be work on sp's ability to synchronize with proprietary lighting softwares which were already have in place.

i mean elon musk is sending shuttles to mars but i am sure adobe would close space x if they own it because it doesnt makes money and force elon to sell his shuttle 3d models at adobe stock  ;D

Just had a look at the "Fuse and Mixamo Future Road Map Plans"-thread over at the Adobe forums. It is a pretty heartbreaking read in my opinion. The Mixamo team doesn't have time to pursue more specialized projects like Fuse because at Adobe they are developing multiple 3D-Apps for a broad audience.

I don't think with the Substance suite it is necessarily the same thing as with Fuse but it also is kind of specialized in its current form. So I would like to know: what is Adobe's vision for 3D, especially in relation to Substance? Does it allow for specialized tools and Game Dev centric programs?

To be honest, while video games industry remains the core/historic market of Substance Painter and Substance Designer, it has broadened its audience for a while right now, to fit the needs of VFX, archviz, automotive, product design, etc...

Just take a look at our blog for the last 3 years and see how wide is the audience. We are thinking about making the best tools to paint 3d assets & author 3d materials. Each market has some specific points to cover, and we want to tackle each of them. UDIMs support that is heavily in development targets more the VFX industry for example.

So the goal is to continue covering all the 3D related markets.

As a long time user and supporter I would like to give my view on this statement by Vincent.

"Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imo (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair."
 
I CHOOSE to pay subscription for 2 reasons only.

1 - I want access to Substance source as a way to learn Designer
2 - I actually choose to pay  the continued subscription as I feel/felt you guys deserved it and I wanted to contribute to development, even if it cost me more!,This is not true now it's going to Adobe, I just don't feel the same way I am truly sorry but that's how I feel, I feel crappy about it but...

I could have purchased a perpetual ages ago, I have been on subscription  WELL over a year.... closer to 2.

Most users love Allegorithmic, But in my case it's not about you, it's that we don't trust Adobe and don't want to be forced to have dealings with them at all on any level, at least that's my feeling.

Had The Foundry not taken Mari and you had done this with  them that would have been awesome IMO.

I will keep using  Substance Suite as I have spent a lot of time using/teaching it and frankly I have too much time  invested in it to abandon it but REALLY not happy to have to deal with Adobe.
BTW I don't use Photoshop either.

Hey, thanks for the feedback (and the support).
Not much to answer on this, except, that we'll try to infuse the "Allegorithmic spirit" into this new 3D initiative, and hopefully change some opinions: I am aware it passes by many steps, but why not?

I like to think about Microsoft: huge company, not perfect for sure, but since Satya Nadella is driving it, a lots of cool things has happened (Linux contributions, etc...), and to me, Microsoft is cooler than it was under Steve Ballmer era. Once again I don't ask anyone to find me a million of examples to show how evil is Microsoft. My point, is even in big companies, there are some room for change.

"Second, renting is not necessarily the issue imo (a large majority of our current users are in monthly plan and never converts it to perpetual, because they want to get the latest features). It's as if saying renting a house is unfair."
 
I could have purchased a perpetual ages ago, I have been on subscription  WELL over a year.... closer to 2.
It's worse in my case, I've been paying for 4 years and never converted it to perpetual because Allegorithmic literally never told me I had to do it. I bought in right at the very start of the indie live license, and the terms I bought under said that I would automatically own the software after 18 payments. It never said anything about cancelling the subscription or submitting a request to get those permanent licenses, and they never sent me any notification that they were changing those terms.

So stupid me kept paying for 4 years (even when I didn't need to use the software for most of that time) thinking I was at least banking those permanent licenses, and now that I've checked to make sure I have them, it turns out I've been cheated. When Vincent says most people are in the subscription and haven't converted to permanent licenses, I have to wonder how many are in my position and were never told they had to request their licenses manually or that there was some kind of time limit.

I don't even know when that information and those terms were added to the website, but they weren't there in 2015 when I bought. The 2015 website straight up says "This monthly fee goes toward the payment of the actual full license; Once you paid the full price, that’s it. The software is yours forever."

As mentioned previously, we communicated like crazy about it (email, newsletter, blog post etc). If you are one of our clients, you should have received the email (it was automated). That said, if not done yet, please write us: contact@allegorithmic.com

some questions to hope to get answers for;
  • Is an official Affinity Photo bridge/ support now out of question? Its competition to another product by Adobe.
  • Why do you not allow the extending of maintenance to more than a year?
  • Regarding Reselling Licenses, how is it going to be done? Please stop breaching EU laws, since 2012 the rulings are clear about it.



  • Is an official Affinity Photo bridge/ support now out of question? Its competition to another product by Adobe.
  • Why do you not allow the extending of maintenance to more than a year?
  • Regarding Reselling Licenses, how is it going to be done? Please stop breaching EU laws, since 2012 the rulings are clear about it.

Honestly, I don't even know if Affinity now has an API to make it possible, but if so, this is something that can be made by the community as well (our api is not locked)

Regarding the second question, well I don't know, (I didn't even know that we are breaching EU laws...)  ;D
please drop a detailed emai (or create a specific threadl so our legal team could have a look.